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Bish Ounen
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.06.16 16:52:00 -
[1]
Ok,
So with the recent T2 cov-ops model fix we are left with one T1 frig per race that has no T2 version.
Gallente: Navitas
Caldari: Bantam
Minmatar: Burst
Amarr: Tormentor
The primary skill set for these ships is that they are either Cargo or Mining frigs, skillsets which do not lend them to direct combat.
However, there are other T1 ships which have T2 combat equivalents, but are not combat oriented in their T1 version. I'm speaking of course, of the Logistics ships.
Logistics ships are fleet support oriented T2 ships which use the hulls of more civilian-oriented T1 ships. Why not do the same thing with the remaining T1 "Civvie" frigates? We already have small shield and armor reppers, why not dedicated small ships to put them on?
I have read some suggestions that these ships be made "T2 mini miners", but with the severe cargo restrictions of a frigate and the invariably higher price of a T2 frigate, a budding miner would be better served getting a cruiser or entry-level mining barge. Simply put, there just isn't any point in making a T2 mining frig.
However, with the advent of FW, and large fleets of smaller ships, having a dedicated logistics frig to back up the other frigs in the fleet (such as keeping EW frigs alive) would be a HUGE and important addition to the Frig lineup, and would also serve to diversify normal 0.0 fleet warfare as well.
This would round-out the full T2 lineup of all 4 races, and allow newer players who want to play a support-oriented role be able to get into the logistics game sooner.
Thoughts? Suggestions? Flames?
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Bish Ounen
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.06.16 17:13:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Arvald
wow....this is actually one of the better ship suggestions ive heard 0_o
Thanks!
It just made sense to me. I mean, what else are you going to do with them? Every other role is covered, and inventing a new role would require all sorts of complicated balance calculations. Just make them frig logistics ships, give them paint jobs to match the cruiser logistics ships (A crimson and silver Navitas would look pretty darn sexy IMHO), and done.
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Bish Ounen
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.06.16 17:20:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Larg Kellein
I'd add the requested flames, but I find myself liking the idea... Dammit.
Your character looks constipated, though!
Well I'll try to make my next suggestion suitably crappy so you can get your flame quotient in for the day. 
Constipated? Really? I was going for more "lip twisted into a wry grin, as though he knows something you don't" look.
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Bish Ounen
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.06.16 20:41:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Ral Ulgur
Sarcastic note: The OP is CLEARLY just looking for a way to sell his 573 Gistii A-Type Small Shield Transporters...
I wish! 
Of course, if anyone wants to donate faction mods of any kind to me, I won't look askance at them.
I have to say, I'm really happy with how much positive reaction my little idea has generated. Of course, knowing my luck it will never be implemented, but at least I can say I'm e-popular.
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Bish Ounen
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.06.17 16:57:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Doddy
You have heard of jetcan mining right? Cargo space doesn't matter. One would assume a t2 frig would mine better than a cruiser so the cost issue is unimportant there. It would obviously be less skill intensive than a covetor, and better than a procurer. Basically it is just the retreiver that would be competing with it. A t2 mining frig would obviously be better for people who were training frig 5 for another reason anyway.
Not that I think that there should be a t2 mining frig, i just think your arguments are flawed. Ideally i would like to see a non pvp ship, preferably one related to either salvaging or the proffessions (hacking/archaeology/anything else ccp throws in).
I understand your disagreement with my arguments, and while I don't doubt your conviction, I would like to attempt to convince you otherwise.
First of all, I will discount jetcan mining for two reasons:
1) ANY ship that can fit a mining laser can jetcan mine. As it is in no way unique to mining barges, exhumers, and mining boosted ships, I will leave it off. It's simply not germain to the subject
2) Do we REALLY want to create a ship which is specifically designed around an activity that encourages BOTH macro-mining AND hisec piracy? Nothing against hi-sec piracy, I've done it myself and find it very enjoyable. I'm just saying that Jetcans (which were only added to the game since miners were exploiting the jettison "fields") aren't something that we really want to encourage.
However, beyond those two reasons there are good game mechanic reasons to not create a T2 mining ship. Allow me to set up an example. Since both of our characters are Gallente, I will use Gallente ships for my example. I'm sure someone more versed with other race's ships could do the same for that race.
The T1 Frigate in question for the Gallente is the Navitas. Here is a basic run-down of the Navitas's stats that are important to the discussion at hand:
NAVITAS
Special Ability: 5% bonus to cargo capacity and 20% bonus to mining laser yield per level. -60% mining laser capacitor use
Fitting
powergrid Output - 20
Low Slots - 2
Med Slots - 2
High Slots - 2
CPU Output - 150
Launcher hardpoints - 0
Turret hardpoints - 2
Structure
Max Velocity - 290
Drone Capacity - 5
capacity - 215 m3
Required skills
Primary Skill required:
Gallente Frigate II
Spaceship Command I
I took these from the EVE-O website Item Database, feel free to check them yourself.
Now, without getting into a micro-analysis, We can see that the important items are the boost to cargo capacity, boost to mining laser yield, reduction in cap needs for mining lasers, the number of turret hardpoints, the overall fit capability, and the skills needed.
Now let's look at two Gallente cruisers:
EXEQUROR
Special Ability: 10% bonus to Cargo Capacity per level. 10% bonus to capacitor need of remote armor repair system per level. 500% bonus to range of remote armor repair systems.
Fitting
powergrid Output - 500
Low Slots - 3
Med Slots - 4
High Slots - 4
CPU Output - 250
Launcher hardpoints - 0
Turret hardpoints - 4
Structure
Max Velocity - 170
Drone Capacity - 40
capacity - 600 m3
Required skills
Primary Skill required:
Gallente Cruiser I
Spaceship Command III
Gallente Frigate IV
Spaceship Command I
Not a bad ship for mining. No mining bonus, but a very nice cargo hold bonus. Combine that with some cheap cargo extenders and you can fit quite the bellyfull of ore without the need for a jetcan. Incidentally, you CAN fit 4 T2 mining lasers onto this ship. You will just need some coprocessors to help with the CPU load. Alternately, you can use the drone capacity to use mining drones, with meta 4 mining lasers. An all-round good mining cruiser.
Continued below....
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Bish Ounen
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.06.17 16:58:00 -
[6]
This space reserved...
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Bish Ounen
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.06.17 16:58:00 -
[7]
This space reserved...
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Bish Ounen
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.06.17 17:58:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Tarminic
Edited by: Tarminic on 17/06/2008 17:50:37
You should make a formal post in the CSM forum about this.
EDIT: Actually, I think I may do this. 
If you do, please provide a link-back to this thread. I appreciate people getting the word out, but it would be nice to get the proper credit for the idea.
Thanks!
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Bish Ounen
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:21:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Rook Highwind
I really like this idea, though wouldn't a T2 Bantam just replace the Kitsune as the first frigate every damn pilot on the field aims for? Watching the alliance tournament, those things went down like very expensive chrome plated flies.
They'd need a fair defensive boost IMO, fielding one just to get one cycle of support in wouldn't be worth it.
Well, the base concept behind the idea of a Logistics frigate is the ship restrictions inherent in Factional Warfare. FW is specifically designed to restrict the gobs and gobs of BSes and larger ships that completely dominate 0.0 Alliance warfare. The reasoning behind this is that FW is aimed (in part) at new players. Players that won't be able to afford all the giant ships. So there are ship size restrictions.
In accordance with this, I felt it wise to round-out the frigate capabilities list with a logistics frig. One that could be used to boost the more fragile e-war frigs and the stealth bombers.
Imagine a fleet of Assault frigs, Inties, E-war frigs, SB's, Cov-ops and assorted other T1 frigates, all aided and backed-up by Logistics frigs. How incredible would that be?
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Bish Ounen
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:36:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Captain Organs
The only thing that I worry about is in the Alliance tournament. Oh dear god the stalemates...
I dunno, even using Logistics cruisers plenty of Alliances went down.
My own alliance did OK with Logistics cruisers and SB's, but lost to spider tanked BSes. If anything, this would make Alliance tournaments more interesting. More reason to use lots of little ships rather than just a couple big ones.
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Bish Ounen
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.06.17 21:05:00 -
[11]
For those that have other fine ideas about what to do with the last T1 frigate, I would recommend that you go to either the Features and Ideas discussion, or the CSM Assembly discussion and start your own thread about them.
They are fine ideas and deserve better than to be buried in this thread.
Also, I'd rather not have my thread hijacked. This is a thread dedicated to the idea of turning the last T1 frigate into a T2 Mini-Logistics Frigate.
Feel free to visit Tarminic's thread about this in the Assembly discussion as well and support the idea if you like it!
Vote for Mini-Logistics using the last T1 Frigate hull!
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Bish Ounen
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.06.18 15:34:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ordon Gundar
There is already a "mini blockade runner"...its called a Sigil with a cloak in it, and its lows rammed with WCS, Intabs and Nanofibers!
I think the logistics idea is great! Call it "tactical logistics" as opposed to fleet logistics, designed to assist the smaller gangs associated with FW.
Oooo! "Tactical Logistics". I LIKE that. Mind if I use that name in my idea? It's very sexeh.
Tactical Logistics using the last T1 Frigate hull!
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Bish Ounen
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.06.20 17:31:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Quaxtl
Edited by: Quaxtl on 18/06/2008 18:53:21
To be honest I just dont see the point...
If you ask me, I think the frigate should be turned into some sort of guerilla ship. Very cloak and dagger - that kind of thing.
Think built in warp core stabs + better bombs + jump drive...
Ok perhaps not, but something that would provide alternatives and counters to blob / POS warfare would be a welcome relief to EVE.
We have that. Three of them, actually:
Stealth Bombers
Covert Ops
Black Ops
If you can't get the cloak and dagger crap done with those 3 ships, you aren't doing it right.
No, FW needs Tactical Logistics frigs. We already have enough cloaking ships in the game.
Tactical Logistics using the last T1 Frigate hull!
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